[FSPA] Preplays are better

[Bob K Mertz]

That's the situation I'm in.... I want to be there as much as I can but I'm starting out with 2 weeks I won't be able to make it this season no matter what.  Living in WV isn't a problem when combined with work but that introduces more of a possibility of getting stuck at work.... Hopefully it doesn't happen but I've had those months where everything hits all at once.

On July 1, 2021 9:10:13 AM EDT, Bryan H via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>For Lost Rhino, it is basically a technicality since we are 4 weeks
>complete - only a handful of players have missed a week yet, so that
>decision could only come up for them and I would probably be
>lenient....I
>know the players and I think everyone wants to play as much as
>possible,
>but sometimes things get in the way, so I'd keep them at this point
>(unless
>there was some terrible decision by them in there).  It really mostly
>hurts
>the players themselves - if you miss that much, you won't make
>playoffs.
>
>Next season, I'll plan to be more explicit with the rule, but hopefully
>we
>won't ever have to use it.  :)
>
>On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 9:02 AM Matt Wycoff via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>wrote:
>
>> Our thought was, by the time you missed 4 weeks you've missed half
>the
>> season.  I like Brian's approach.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob K Mertz via FSPA
><fspa at fspazone.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> IIRC Ocelot told me that I could likely miss 3 weeks but they
>weren't
>>> totally sure. I asked on the list here and never got an official
>answer.
>>>
>>> On July 1, 2021 8:49:29 AM EDT, Bryan H via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That is a season specific setting in the software...default is 8
>>>> forfeits (2 weeks) I believe.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know that anyone talked explicitly about it, but I assumed
>that
>>>> with the drop 2, you'd be able to drop those 2 weeks and then also
>forfeit
>>>> 2 more weeks for a total of 4 weeks missed.
>>>>
>>>> That's the way I plan to treat it at Lost Rhino.  SLO can also make
>>>> determinations of which FORFEIT code to use for a match to control
>this.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>> Bryan
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:43 AM Kevin Stone via FSPA
><fspa at fspazone.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anyone know the rule on how many forfeits this year before getting
>>>>> kicked out?  Used to be 8 but that was with up to 3 weeks of
>pre-plays for
>>>>> a no show of 5 weeks out of 10.  I’m guessing you don’t show 4
>weeks and
>>>>> you’re out?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* FSPA [mailto:fspa-bounces at fspazone.org] *On Behalf Of
>*Dave
>>>>> Hubbard via FSPA
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 30, 2021 10:57 PM
>>>>> *To:* FSPA main discussion list
>>>>> *Cc:* Dave Hubbard
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FSPA] Preplays are better
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > There are events that could change that like people dropping out
>or
>>>>> joining in late, but otherwise it’s set.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why it's incorrect to say that next week's groups are set
>in
>>>>> stone.  They can change.  In fact, section 6.4 lays out how to
>deal with
>>>>> drop-outs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether this is a good system or not is of course a matter of
>opinion.
>>>>> I'm personally not a fan of declaring next week's groups ahead of
>time and
>>>>> potentially playing with a physical 2 or 1-player group (preplays
>or not)
>>>>> but that's the system we have.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>            --- Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 PM Stephen Jonke via FSPA <
>>>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Groups do matter. I don’t understand why we are arguing. I just
>dropped
>>>>> another group because I’m playing really poorly so far. There are
>events
>>>>> that could change that like people dropping out or joining in
>late, but
>>>>> otherwise it’s set.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 30, 2021, 9:29 PM -0400, Bob K Mertz via FSPA
><fspa at fspazone.org>,
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> All that may be true but that's literally what this argument seems
>to be
>>>>> about... The groups don't matter so we should all just ignore them
>.....
>>>>> but here's a list of the groups that don't matter anyway because
>it's
>>>>> interesting but, remember, they don't matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll be honest with you, I've been in FSPA for years and until
>this
>>>>> discussion began I always thought it was set in stone that if you
>win
>>>>> your group you move up to the next group and if you lose you move
>down a
>>>>> group and that the ladder was a completely seperate thing (perhaps
>this
>>>>> is why it seems like I feel the "taking 0s" thing is more absurd
>than
>>>>> others). My understanding of that was based solely on what I saw
>every
>>>>> week - for all of those years. It's easy to say that it's just
>always
>>>>> been about the ladder but for those of us that have watched the
>grouping
>>>>> formula consistently remain true week after week it *feels* like
>you're
>>>>> rewriting the rules even though you aren't.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that it's interesting to know where you are playing next
>week
>>>>> but if that's not set in stone then it's a "fantasy". Those
>fantasies
>>>>> may essentially be fact right now since no one ever seems to
>actually
>>>>> change the groups before league but watching the FSPA leaders get
>upset
>>>>> because no one seems to comprehend that groupings don't matter
>while
>>>>> they simultaneously say they are important because they are
>interesting
>>>>> only adds to the confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously I've not understood this system and I never had any
>reason to
>>>>> expect that I didn't. Previously I just ignore emails that turn
>into
>>>>> these huge discussions but I got caught up in this one..... From a
>>>>> practical sense others in the league may be making the same
>assumptions
>>>>> I had been and having no reason to ask how things really work and
>aren't
>>>>> reading this discussion to learn otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never felt comfortable really voicing my opinions about these
>huge
>>>>> issues because it always seems to turn into a battle with those
>that
>>>>> have been in FSPA for more than 10 years..... It usually doesn't
>seem
>>>>> the take away ever is "hey, new comers or even those who have been
>>>>> around for less than 15 years may see things differently". This
>time I
>>>>> might have actually learned something but I'm not expecting the
>outcome
>>>>> to be any different than any other huge discussion about the
>league.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/30/21 3:46 PM, steve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob, what you are highlighting is a byproduct of practical
>>>>> implementation details.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure we could not publish groups as part of prior week's results,
>but
>>>>> knowing where people are playing is very interesting stuff to most
>>>>> people.  And in the VAST majority of cases, what was projected
>when last
>>>>> week's results, will still ring true when the next week starts. 
>So, for
>>>>> the majority of cases, it's GOOD info and accurate to the future. 
>I
>>>>> mean.. if you wanted to get technical, maybe the right takeaway is
>to
>>>>> label the table "Projected Groups"
>>>>>
>>>>> The software is just presenting a simplified view of the world for
>easy
>>>>> consumption.  Prior implementation were more precise and dumped
>more
>>>>> details, but most didn't use the info anyway, so it was
>streamlined.
>>>>> The 'next week' table really shows two things - The stacked
>ladder, and
>>>>> groupings overlaid on that if things stay as they did when the
>>>>> scoresheet was published.
>>>>>
>>>>> People are just holding onto it 'too tightly' vs what the
>information
>>>>> really is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week
>we
>>>>>
>>>>> get emails that paint a
>>>>>
>>>>> picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a misunderstanding of what is being said.  No one said
>>>>> 'groupings don't matter'.  It's that groupings are not what is SET
>first
>>>>> nor are the 'fixed'.  They come last and are laid over whatever
>other
>>>>> decisions are made ahead of it.  The tail doesn't wag the dog...
>>>>>
>>>>> -Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EDT, Bob K Mertz via FSPA
>>>>> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there is another huge problem being overlooked.... Well,
>the
>>>>> creation of that problem is being overlooked. You're right that
>the
>>>>> ladder doesn't gel well in the minds of many (myself often
>included) and
>>>>> the one thing that seemingly is repeated over and over here is
>that
>>>>> groups are never assigned until just before league starts......
>>>>> ...... Except that we get an email that tells us what group we are
>in
>>>>> next week as soon as the results are posted.
>>>>>
>>>>> I trust the ladder and I trust that the software is doing is thing
>so
>>>>> why do the results emails we get try to paint a picture in the
>hopes of
>>>>> explaining something that, apparently, doesn't at all seem to be
>the
>>>>> case? Just don't tell us on advance what our groups are (or are
>supposed
>>>>> to be) and tell us what groups we are in when we start league play
>and
>>>>> this "false narrative" eventually disappears.
>>>>>
>>>>> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week
>we get
>>>>> emails that paint a picture of how "crucial" the groupings
>actually are.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On June 30, 2021 1:45:54 PM EDT, steve via FSPA
><fspa at fspazone.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference with FSPA seems to be that you guys try to
>>>>>
>>>>> 'pre-make' your groups of 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> which obviously causes scrambling when people don't show
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are no 'pre-made' groups.  This is a common misunderstanding
>>>>> about Groups in the FSPA design.  Groups are not pre-set before
>>>>> league... a SLO could define groups at 5mins before league start
>if
>>>>> they needed to.  What is 'fixed' in the FSPA system is the LADDER
>-
>>>>> which is the stacking of players in order which serves as the
>>>>> fundamental handicapping system in the FSPA match play system. 
>The
>>>>> ladder starts with everyone's initial seeding, and is refined each
>>>>> week by the movement defined by player performance against their
>>>>> peers.  Group movement is the feedback loop that 'refines' the
>>>>> ladder each week.  (Group Movement also gives people more variety
>in
>>>>> competition you see.. but that's more a side-benefit)
>>>>>
>>>>> FSPA is a match play system.. so a fundamental concept in match
>play
>>>>> is "Who do you play in your match"
>>>>>
>>>>> You could have
>>>>> - random assignments
>>>>> - groupings based on skill assessment/external rankings
>>>>> - some non-random scheme designed to rotate or assign people by
>some
>>>>> distribution (Example: Round robin)
>>>>>
>>>>> The first and third systems generally will mix up players of
>>>>> different skill, and there are pros and cons to such models.  But
>>>>> over the long haul, you can expect the better players to score
>>>>> better at the expense of their under matched opponents.
>>>>>
>>>>> The second model tries to group similar skilled players together.
>>>>> But is highly dependent on how you measure/assess/assign those
>skill
>>>>> rankings.  This is difficult to do with new players, new
>locations, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Systems like Pinburgh were 'skill' based, but rather have you only
>>>>> play against your peers, it used a converging model.  So #1 didn't
>>>>> always play against #1, #2, #3, they played against other ranks
>>>>> until ultimately converging there.  Like the FSPA model, their
>>>>> 'ranking' was not fixed, but refined each round based on
>>>>> performance.  (They used total points, FSPA instead uses group
>>>>> promotion/demotion to refine your rank in the ladder).
>>>>>
>>>>> FSPA fundamentally is setup to allow players of different skill
>>>>> levels to compete together.  This isn't just about breaking into
>>>>> divisions.  It's the fundamental concept that we have inherent
>>>>> handicapping built into the system by grouping similar skill
>levels
>>>>> together.  This functions so it makes sense to compare the 12
>points
>>>>> I got in a week in group 1, to someone in group 4 who also got 12
>>>>> points.  We both got 12 points...  are we equal players?  Probably
>>>>> not, but our handicapped output is the same.. and you win/lose the
>>>>> overall league based on your handicapped output - your match
>points.
>>>>>
>>>>> The premise of allowing players of different skill level to
>compete
>>>>> and enjoy league is one of the core premises behind the FSPA rules
>>>>> design.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone generally agrees getting creamed in a group is not fun
>long
>>>>> term - thus there is extra attention to the idea of not placing
>>>>> players where they would be setup for failure for no fault of
>their
>>>>> own.  Additionally, on the competitive side, it creates
>significant
>>>>> disparities when people are not aligned with their skill group,
>>>>> while other players are.  (easier/harder to get points, etc)
>>>>>
>>>>> The point of all this is to try to explain why the Ladder is a
>>>>> central pillar of the concept of how we pair players to play
>>>>> together.  The more you move people around, the more you shake the
>>>>> principal of how people are intended to be 'fairly' matched up
>which
>>>>> is how we establish the equality of match points between different
>>>>> groups.
>>>>>
>>>>> Match points are comparable across groups as the measure of
>success
>>>>> because of handicapping.  Instead of adding/subtracting to scores
>as
>>>>> a handicap, we use who you compete against as the handicapping in
>>>>> the system.  The ladder is the construct to do this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *So, TLDR - what the f are you talking about?*  It's important you
>>>>> keep people playing against similar skill (within our ability) as
>a
>>>>> fundamental construct of how the competitive and fun factors of
>our
>>>>> scoring model operates.  Obviously you can start over with another
>>>>> model entirely, and do away with the handicap FSPA is built on,
>but
>>>>> understand it's not just a 'group change' but cuts much deeper
>when
>>>>> you move people around the ladder or who they are grouped with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Skipping people not present when grouping is entirely feasible,
>the
>>>>> messier part is how to systematically handle group movement after
>>>>> the fact.  It would probably look a LOT more messy to players to
>>>>> understand.  (only move winners and losers from their initial
>>>>> position, not where they actually played, etc).
>>>>>
>>>>> But players don't generally understand ladder movement in the
>first
>>>>> place... so...  :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 10:16:19 AM EDT, Elliott Keith via
>FSPA
>>>>> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even though I had to drop out of MOM's league this season due to
>>>>> personal stuff, I felt the need to chime in with a 'simple'
>solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pretty much every other league I've played in besides FSPA had a
>>>>> drop 2 format, with no headache. The difference with FSPA seems to
>>>>> be that you guys try to 'pre-make' your groups of 3, which
>obviously
>>>>> causes scrambling when people don't show. The 'drop 2' and
>'pre-made
>>>>> groups' just don't seem compatible to me. Most all other leagues
>>>>> randomly dole out groups at the start of the night, and
>>>>> Crabtowne's league had a 'division split' halfway through so you'd
>>>>> play with people somewhat around your skill level.
>>>>>
>>>>> My solution idea is that instead of trying to 'pre-make' groups,
>why
>>>>> not just keep track of ladder position? Like, after confirming
>who's
>>>>> not there, the top three present are group 1, next three group 2,
>>>>> etc. all the way down, with the last group being a 4 or 2 if
>>>>> necessary. Keeps the similar skill level thing going, and seems
>>>>> pretty easy to implement, since you guys keep track of that
>anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my two cents. Hope to be back in a league next season, and
>>>>> happy 4th!
>>>>>
>>>>> -Elliott
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Rob Wintler-Cox via FSPA
>>>>> <fspa at fspazone.org <mailto:fspa at fspazone.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:38 AM Daniel Northover
>>>>> <northovr at verizon.net <mailto:northovr at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Just ribbing you Rob your doing a awesome job
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After last week my ribs are pretty sore. ;)
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>brevity.
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