[FSPA] Preplays are better

Wed Jun 30 21:25:24 EDT 2021

fuck preplays.

that is all.

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 3:46 PM steve via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:

> Bob, what you are highlighting is a byproduct of practical implementation
> details.
>
> Sure we could not publish groups as part of prior week's results, but
> knowing where people are playing is very interesting stuff to most people.
> And in the VAST majority of cases, what was projected when last week's
> results, will still ring true when the next week starts.  So, for the
> majority of cases, it's GOOD info and accurate to the future.  I mean.. if
> you wanted to get technical, maybe the right takeaway is to label the table
> "Projected Groups"
>
> The software is just presenting a simplified view of the world for easy
> consumption.  Prior implementation were more precise and dumped more
> details, but most didn't use the info anyway, so it was streamlined.  The
> 'next week' table really shows two things - The stacked ladder, and
> groupings overlaid on that if things stay as they did when the scoresheet
> was published.
>
> People are just holding onto it 'too tightly' vs what the information
> really is.
>
> >TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we get
> emails that paint a
> > picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.
>
> That is a misunderstanding of what is being said.  No one said 'groupings
> don't matter'.  It's that groupings are not what is SET first nor are the
> 'fixed'.  They come last and are laid over whatever other decisions are
> made ahead of it.  The tail doesn't wag the dog...
>
> -Steve
>
> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EDT, Bob K Mertz via FSPA <
> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>
>
> I think there is another huge problem being overlooked.... Well, the
> creation of that problem is being overlooked. You're right that the ladder
> doesn't gel well in the minds of many (myself often included) and the one
> thing that seemingly is repeated over and over here is that groups are
> never assigned until just before league starts......
> ...... Except that we get an email that tells us what group we are in next
> week as soon as the results are posted.
>
> I trust the ladder and I trust that the software is doing is thing so why
> do the results emails we get try to paint a picture in the hopes of
> explaining something that, apparently, doesn't at all seem to be the case?
> Just don't tell us on advance what our groups are (or are supposed to be)
> and tell us what groups we are in when we start league play and this "false
> narrative" eventually disappears.
>
> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we get
> emails that paint a picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.
>
>
> On June 30, 2021 1:45:54 PM EDT, steve via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>
> >The difference with FSPA seems to be that you guys try to 'pre-make'
> your groups of 3,
> > which obviously causes scrambling when people don't show
>
> There are no 'pre-made' groups.  This is a common misunderstanding about
> Groups in the FSPA design.  Groups are not pre-set before league... a SLO
> could define groups at 5mins before league start if they needed to.  What
> is 'fixed' in the FSPA system is the LADDER - which is the stacking of
> players in order which serves as the fundamental handicapping system in the
> FSPA match play system.  The ladder starts with everyone's initial seeding,
> and is refined each week by the movement defined by player performance
> against their peers.  Group movement is the feedback loop that 'refines'
> the ladder each week.  (Group Movement also gives people more variety in
> competition you see.. but that's more a side-benefit)
>
> FSPA is a match play system.. so a fundamental concept in match play is
> "Who do you play in your match"
>
> You could have
> - random assignments
> - groupings based on skill assessment/external rankings
> - some non-random scheme designed to rotate or assign people by some
> distribution (Example: Round robin)
>
> The first and third systems generally will mix up players of different
> skill, and there are pros and cons to such models.  But over the long haul,
> you can expect the better players to score better at the expense of their
> under matched opponents.
>
> The second model tries to group similar skilled players together.  But is
> highly dependent on how you measure/assess/assign those skill rankings.
> This is difficult to do with new players, new locations, etc.
>
> Systems like Pinburgh were 'skill' based, but rather have you only play
> against your peers, it used a converging model.  So #1 didn't always play
> against #1, #2, #3, they played against other ranks until ultimately
> converging there.  Like the FSPA model, their 'ranking' was not fixed, but
> refined each round based on performance.  (They used total points, FSPA
> instead uses group promotion/demotion to refine your rank in the ladder).
>
> FSPA fundamentally is setup to allow players of different skill levels to
> compete together.  This isn't just about breaking into divisions.  It's the
> fundamental concept that we have inherent handicapping built into the
> system by grouping similar skill levels together.  This functions so it
> makes sense to compare the 12 points I got in a week in group 1, to someone
> in group 4 who also got 12 points.  We both got 12 points...  are we equal
> players?  Probably not, but our handicapped output is the same.. and you
> win/lose the overall league based on your handicapped output - your match
> points.
>
> The premise of allowing players of different skill level to compete and
> enjoy league is one of the core premises behind the FSPA rules design.
>
> Everyone generally agrees getting creamed in a group is not fun long term
> - thus there is extra attention to the idea of not placing players where
> they would be setup for failure for no fault of their own.  Additionally,
> on the competitive side, it creates significant disparities when people are
> not aligned with their skill group, while other players are.
> (easier/harder to get points, etc)
>
> The point of all this is to try to explain why the Ladder is a central
> pillar of the concept of how we pair players to play together.  The more
> you move people around, the more you shake the principal of how people are
> intended to be 'fairly' matched up which is how we establish the equality
> of match points between different groups.
>
> Match points are comparable across groups as the measure of success
> because of handicapping.  Instead of adding/subtracting to scores as a
> handicap, we use who you compete against as the handicapping in the
> system.  The ladder is the construct to do this.
>
>
> *So, TLDR - what the f are you talking about?*  It's important you keep
> people playing against similar skill (within our ability) as a fundamental
> construct of how the competitive and fun factors of our scoring model
> operates.  Obviously you can start over with another model entirely, and do
> away with the handicap FSPA is built on, but understand it's not just a
> 'group change' but cuts much deeper when you move people around the ladder
> or who they are grouped with.
>
> Skipping people not present when grouping is entirely feasible, the
> messier part is how to systematically handle group movement after the
> fact.  It would probably look a LOT more messy to players to understand.
> (only move winners and losers from their initial position, not where they
> actually played, etc).
>
> But players don't generally understand ladder movement in the first
> place... so...  :)
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 10:16:19 AM EDT, Elliott Keith via FSPA <
> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>
>
> Even though I had to drop out of MOM's league this season due to personal
> stuff, I felt the need to chime in with a 'simple' solution.
>
> Pretty much every other league I've played in besides FSPA had a drop 2
> format, with no headache. The difference with FSPA seems to be that you
> guys try to 'pre-make' your groups of 3, which obviously causes scrambling
> when people don't show. The 'drop 2' and 'pre-made groups' just don't seem
> compatible to me. Most all other leagues randomly dole out groups at the
> start of the night, and Crabtowne's league had a 'division split' halfway
> through so you'd play with people somewhat around your skill level.
>
> My solution idea is that instead of trying to 'pre-make' groups, why not
> just keep track of ladder position? Like, after confirming who's not there,
> the top three present are group 1, next three group 2, etc. all the way
> down, with the last group being a 4 or 2 if necessary. Keeps the similar
> skill level thing going, and seems pretty easy to implement, since you guys
> keep track of that anyway.
>
> Just my two cents. Hope to be back in a league next season, and happy 4th!
>
> -Elliott
>
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Rob Wintler-Cox via FSPA <
> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:38 AM Daniel Northover <northovr at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> Just ribbing you Rob your doing a awesome job
>
>
> After last week my ribs are pretty sore. ;)
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