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<p>Paul, the 28 player situation was the hardest scenario that we had to work with. The optimal thing to do for our goal of bringing close to half the players into the playoffs would actually be to keep it at three divisions and have playoff spots, but that
gets us right back into having a two round playoff that might last longer than the location is willing to stay open for.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I know when we were having the last discussion, I was looking at playoffs through the framework of getting around half per division, rounded down. So at 28 players, we would split in 4 divisions of 7. Half of the players would be 3.5, rounded down to 3
per division. Once we get to 29 players, then A division get the extra player and goes to 8 players. Half would be 4 spots. For ease for the SLO and for the benefit of everyone, we made the call that the number of qualifiers would be half of the largest
division, rounded down. Hence where we got to the current slotting for playoff spots.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Any suggestions to improve things are always appreciated!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Joe K.<br>
</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> FSPA <fspa-bounces@fspazone.org> on behalf of Paul Liam McGlone via FSPA <fspa@fspazone.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 21, 2017 11:40:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> FSPA main discussion list<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Paul Liam McGlone<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FSPA] playoff qualifiers</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="4" class="">Thank you for starting a new subject/thread. I didn’t want to toss this on the “some bullies play at VBH” thread. </font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">So, here is something I had put together when the subject of “only 3 players out of each 7-player division, in a 28 player league”</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">=============. Below is analysis of the rules applied to X players in X divisions, and how many players are put into the playoffs, per the </font><a href="http://fspazone.org/complete-rules/" class="">“ Long Rules”</a><font size="4" class="">
…. </font></div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT;">
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">============</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">There has been some discussion about why we had 3 players in each division instead of 4, at RedZone following this Summer season.</font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">The rules and software do call for this, for a 28 player league, but we were trying to figure out why. </font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Looking at the chart, it looks like 28 players is the ONLY size that would have 3 player “finals" for leagues with 22 to 36 players. </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">This is from the Rules, with the percentages added in <font color="#b92d5d" class="">Red. </font> </font></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class="">
<table border="1" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; border-collapse: collapse; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; width: 850px; color: rgb(30, 50, 71); font-family: 'Libre Franklin', 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<tbody class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;">
<tr align="center" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(229, 237, 247);">
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em 0.4em 0.4em 0px;"><font size="4" class="">22-27</font></td>
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em;"><i class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><font size="4" class="">n/a</font></i></td>
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em 0px 0.4em 0.4em;"><font size="4" class="">A-4, B-4, C-4<br class="">
<br class="">
</font>
<div class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; padding: 0px;"><font color="#b92d5d" class="" size="4">44.44% to 54.54%</font></div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr align="center" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(229, 237, 247);">
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em 0.4em 0.4em 0px;"><font size="4" class="">28</font>
<div class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; padding: 0px;"><font size="4" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</font></div>
</td>
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em;"><i class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><font size="4" class="">n/a</font></i></td>
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em 0px 0.4em 0.4em;"><font size="4" class="">A-3, B-3, C-3, D-3<br class="">
<font color="#b92d5d" class="">42.86%<br class="">
(16 out of 28 players would be 57.14%)</font></font></td>
</tr>
<tr align="center" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(229, 237, 247);">
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em 0.4em 0.4em 0px;"><font size="4" class="">29-36</font>
<div class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; padding: 0px;"><font size="4" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</font></div>
</td>
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em;"><i class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><font size="4" class="">n/a</font></i></td>
<td class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; padding: 0.4em 0px 0.4em 0.4em;"><font size="4" class="">A-4, B-4, C-4, D-4<br class="">
<font color="#b92d5d" class="">44.44% to 55.17%</font></font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">So, it appears that, not only is the 16 player case the only case out of these 15 cases which only have 3 players in a group for finals, but it is also the lowest percentage of players, falling outside the mimimm possible
percentages </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">There were two changes to the rules that made this happen. This started as an effort to reduce the need for semi-final rounds, so that we could get out of the facility before they wanted to close: </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">First in 6/13, there was one change which made this 3-qualifier format for 28-29 players. </font></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Then, in 2/15, they changed it to give 4 player playoffs to the 29-player leagues, so that there wouldn’t be an 8-player division with only 3 qualifiers. </font></div>
<div class="">
<h4 class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; clear: both; line-height: 1.4; margin: 0px 0px 0.75em; padding: 1.5em 0px 0px; color: rgb(30, 50, 71); font-family: 'Libre Franklin', 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size="4" class="">June 2013</font></h4>
<ul class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; padding: 0px; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial; color: rgb(30, 50, 71); font-family: 'Libre Franklin', 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<li class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><font size="4" class="">[<a href="http://www.fspazone.org/complete-rules/#8.2" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(16, 32, 49); text-decoration: none; box-shadow: rgb(7, 15, 23) 0px -1px 0px inset; transition: color 80ms ease-in, box-shadow 130ms ease-in-out, -webkit-box-shadow 130ms ease-in-out;">8.2</a>]
Changed division breakouts to avoid semi-finals as long as possible: 28-29 players are now 4 divisions/3 qualifiers each, and 30-36 players are now 4 divisions/4 qualifiers each. (05/07/14)</font></li></ul>
<div class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; padding: 0px; color: rgb(30, 50, 71); font-family: 'Libre Franklin', 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<h4 class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; clear: both; line-height: 1.4; margin: 0px 0px 0.75em; padding: 1.5em 0px 0px;">
<font size="4" class="">February 2015</font></h4>
<ul class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; padding: 0px; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial;">
<li class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><font size="4" class="">[<a href="http://www.fspazone.org/complete-rules/#4.6" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(16, 32, 49); text-decoration: none; box-shadow: rgb(7, 15, 23) 0px -1px 0px inset; transition: color 80ms ease-in, box-shadow 130ms ease-in-out, -webkit-box-shadow 130ms ease-in-out;">4.6</a>]
When restarting a game that had the wrong number of players, giving all players the option of keeping their first ball from the original game, or doing a complete replay. (01/07/15)</font></li><li class="" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><font size="4" class="">[<a href="http://www.fspazone.org/complete-rules/#8.2" class="" style="box-sizing: inherit; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(16, 32, 49); text-decoration: none; box-shadow: rgb(7, 15, 23) 0px -1px 0px inset; transition: color 80ms ease-in, box-shadow 130ms ease-in-out, -webkit-box-shadow 130ms ease-in-out;">8.2</a>]
Bumped 29 player leagues to have 4 divisions with 4 qualifiers each, to avoid having A division with 8 players and only 3 playoff slots. (01/07/15)</font></li></ul>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" class="" size="4"><span class="">Paul Liam McGlone</span></font></div>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><font size="4" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span class="">703 273-2750</span></font><o:p class=""></o:p></font></div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">On Sep 21, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Joe Kosack via FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" class="">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:</font></div>
<font size="4" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</font>
<div class="">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class="">You only get to 5 person playoffs when there are 37 or more players in a league. If we get to 37 players in a league for a season, we're doing a really good job.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="">😊</span></font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class="">There comes a point where you need to cap the number of divisions, because running playoffs when there are three divisions can be hard enough, let alone four or five divisions
playing at the same time. When we last revised the number of qualifiers, the numbers were based on roughly half of the players making it. If the largest division had 7 or less players, 3 players make playoffs. If the largest division had 8 or 9 players,
4 players make playoffs. If a division had 10 players, we made a new division up until we had four divisions. At that point, we tapered off division growth in favor keeping it simpler for the SLOs that are running the league. Currently, a fifth division
doesn't come into play until there are 45 players, but a fourth division starts at 28 players.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class="">Hope this helps! :)</font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class="">Joe K.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
</div>
<font size="4" class="">
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<span style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""></span></font>
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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class="" size="4"><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa-bounces@fspazone.org" class="">fspa-bounces@fspazone.org</a>> on behalf of Dave Hubbard via FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" class="">fspa@fspazone.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, September 21, 2017 10:57:38 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>FSPA main discussion list<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dave Hubbard<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FSPA] playoff qualifiers</font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""> </font></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><font size="4" class="">I'd support that. 5-person playoffs takes forever. Capping it at 4 seems sensible, 3 for smaller leagues.</font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""> --- Dave</font></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4" class="">On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Daniel Cotter via FSPA<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank" class="">fspa@fspazone.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class="">
</font>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: sans-serif; background-color: white;" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Since a call for rule mods and suggested changes has been opened I'll restate mine. I know how many people make the playoffs is a calculation. But it seems the preferred number of players is 4. 5 or more is a pain really small leagues
might call for 3 but still 4 seems to be preferred. So i suggest make 4 the cut.<br class="">
<br class="">
</font></div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: sans-serif; background-color: white;" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Daniel<br class="">
<br class="">
</font></div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: sans-serif; background-color: white;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: sans-serif; background-color: white;" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Get<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://aka.ms/ghei36" target="_blank" class="">Outlook for Android</a></font></div>
<font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<font size="4" class="">
<hr style="display: inline-block; width: 1009.140625px;" class="">
</font>
<div id="m_-4079492575173952234divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class="" size="4"><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>FSPA <fspa-bounces+gotta_fixit=<a href="mailto:hotmail.com@fspazone.org" target="_blank" class="">hotm<wbr class="">ail.com@fspazone.org</a>>
on behalf of Joe Schober via FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank" class="">fspa@fspazone.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, September 21, 2017 5:45:46 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>FSPA main discussion list<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Joe Schober<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FSPA] Preplays VUK</font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""> </font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Several folks have pretty well covered the rules and intentions here.</font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Preplays are meant to replicate the conditions of normal league play as much as reasonably practicable. For example, this is a large part of the reason we require preplays to be done with another person: multi-player games
can be very different from single-player games as far as maintaining (or not) your rhythm on a game, jackpot-stealing / lock-stealing and similar features on some games, etc.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">One key rule of normal league play -- too obvious to be explicitly written, though alluded to in rule 5 -- is "no mulligans". You get exactly one try at each game, and you record whatever score you get, good or bad. (There
are rare exceptions related to Interference or Malfunction rulings.) The same is true of preplays: per rule 9, you explicitly state when you start a game that this is a preplay, and then the result of that game is recorded as your preplay. You don't get
to play a game several times until you get a score you like, and then retroactively claim that as your preplay. The same rule specifically notes that any preplays in progress at league start time are stopped, and the score shown is recorded as your preplay
score. Doing otherwise would allow for mulligans (Dave H provided some great examples), which wouldn't be fair. So do not start a preplay before league if you don't think there's a reasonable chance you can finish it by scheduled league start time.</font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">For after-league play (whether preplays or just for fun), there's no specific rule, but the Golden Rule is always a good guide... check to see if any groups still need to play the game you're about to start. I'd be somewhat
reluctant to add a rule that blocks all preplays just because one group is having an epic game 4, but we can take that under consideration per Dave's request.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">I encourage everyone to review the full rules at <<a href="http://www.fspazone.org/complete-rules/" target="_blank" class="">http://www.fspazone.org/<wbr class="">complete-rules/</a>>, especially if you have insomnia.
They're long and cover lots of things that aren't really a factor 99% of the time. But every rule was created for a specific reason, and many of them have been fine-tuned several times, based on what 22 years of experience says works best for the most people
most of the time. Don't hesitate to ask your league officers, or here on the mailing list, if you have any questions about them. We also accept suggestions for rule additions or modifications; this feedback will be reviewed and (loudly) debated by all league
officers between seasons, and voted on.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Thanks!</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">--Joe</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="4" class=""><br class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
FSPA mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:FSPA@fspazone.org" class="">FSPA@fspazone.org</a><br class="">
<a href="http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.fspazone.org/<wbr class="">mailman/listinfo/fspa</a><br class="">
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<font size="4" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
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<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><font size="4" class="">"Never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about."</font></div>
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<font size="4" class=""><span style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">FSPA
mailing list</span><br style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="mailto:FSPA@fspazone.org" class="">FSPA@fspazone.org</a></span><br style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa" class="">http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa</a></span></font></div>
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