<div dir="ltr">Whoops, realized I had just been responding to Steve and not the group (if anyone else cares...).<div><br></div><div>I just think tiebreakers should be not be decided by effective points. If Bath doesn't show up for two weeks, like I said earlier, I think that is a situation where effective points make sense, for sandbagging prevention.</div><div><br></div><div>I actually did not realize that Tim had gotten two effective points from his failure to play our first game - so I played TZ not knowing i had to beat his score - that's my fault for not knowing the rules. </div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, just consider getting rid of tiebreaker "2s" counting as real points. I realize I have only been playing competitively for 2 years (and this is only my third season with FSPA) so take my argument for what it's worth. </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks :)</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 12:23 PM steve <<a href="mailto:flynnibus@yahoo.com" target="_blank">flynnibus@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif"></div>
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif">"<span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">The tie was decided in Tim's favor by the fact that the last game he "played" (these were all his preplays) he won. Twilight zone. It had nothing to do with commonly played games?"</span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It does... TZ was your 'last commonly played game'. The theory is 'the final match' is where a tie is broken.. "last commonly played game" allows that model to extend to the situations where the last person may have not had a score... and the 'common game' idea is consistent with other ideas in the rules (like in playoffs) where not everyone plays the same games. </span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The order of games matters (which is why people like me don't like it when groups hop around). We try to keep the pre-play rules as consistent as possible with regular play. So we don't make extra rules around "playing live vs playing via bank". Sometimes you have to have accommodations (like 'last commonly played') simply for the practicalities of the situations that come up. You don't want to add more complexity to the rules where you don't have to.</font></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">You as the player playing 'live' did have several advantages for being there live. You knew TZ was the tie-breaker game... you knew Tim's score to beat before you even plunged. The preplay player does not know those things... and is the incentive for live play vs preplay. These are advantages live players get without having to codify anything extra in the rules.</font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I think the root rub here is the "valuing" of moving up. The ladder is ONLY for handicapping the players (in who you play, and ultimately what division). The thing that matters is league points. And you still got more league points than Tim, and effective points never impact league points - only the ladder. </font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Points are what you seek - not ladder rank :) Score points and the ladder will take care of itself.. and that's the beauty of it.</font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Most people see scoring above 12 and being able to stay in your group as bonus :)</font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="font-size:16px"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">-Steve</font></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div>
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On Wednesday, September 19, 2018, 12:08:46 PM EDT, Stephanie Traub <<a href="mailto:stephsharer@gmail.com" target="_blank">stephsharer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321"><div><div dir="ltr">The tie was decided in Tim's favor by the fact that the last game he "played" (these were all his preplays) he won. Twilight zone. It had nothing to do with commonly played games? Why should the order of the games matter, ESPECIALLY when he wasn't physically there? If Ghosbusters would have been the last game, *i* would have won the tie breaker.<div><br clear="none"></div><div>If Bath didn't show up for two weeks and *didn't' bother to do preplays* for them, I'm not saying he shouldn't get effective points. I already stated that someone who didn't play for two weeks, i understand the point of effective points. I'm saying that for tiebreakers, the person who showed up and/or bothered to do a preplay shouldn't be the one penalized.</div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><br clear="none"><div class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321yqt3337900187" id="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321yqt70163"><div class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:57 AM steve <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:flynnibus@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">flynnibus@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div><div><div><div><span>Ties are already decided by commonly played games which is more fair.</span><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>The purpose of effective points is to ensure players do not articially drop in the ladder. Doing things to push them down kinda defeats the purpose.</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Think of it this way... imagine bath is absent for two weeks and without effective points he would drop two groups down. Now, for the next two weeks, everyone in those two groups would have to play a player well above their skill level... meaning likely 5-7 players impacted. Effective points is the system that prevents that. </span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Moving up hurts your handicapping. Moving down improves it.</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Effective points is two per game as it is the average. Their impact should be roughly in the middle to neutral. In the case of your tie... Tim scored better than you in 2/3 games. Why wouldn’t him moving up be in line with that?<br clear="none"></span><div><div></div></div></div><p class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yahoo-quoted-begin" style="font-size:15px;color:#715ffa;padding-top:15px;margin-top:0">On Wednesday, September 19, 2018, 7:18 AM, Stephanie Traub via FSPA <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201iosymail"><div id="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566"><div><div><div>Another thing to consider is maybe, such as in this case, if it comes down to a tiebreaker (I had 13 pts and Tim had 11, 13 with the effective points), the person using effective points would lose the tiebreaker and would stay in the group. That would be more fair. </div></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566yqt0022516690" id="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566yqt86203"><div><br clear="none"><div class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 7:28 PM Stephanie Traub <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:stephsharer@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">stephsharer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>Now that you say that i bet it will happen to me and I’m totally blaming it on this one thing! 😂</div></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it! </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><div class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 7:21 PM Joe Schober via FSPA <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Stephanie wrote...<br clear="none"><div><br clear="none"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Based on how i read the standings as they are submitted and published to IFPA, final league ranking is based on group order. So if, say, league ended today, Rob WC (as an example) would be above me, even though he only got 3 points yesterday, because he is in a higher group. So that's why i'd consider it an advantage. No?</div><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div><br clear="none" class="m_698164974263338253m_-5949053775739867255m_-5760585223473240124ydpaaaac3d8yiv4172374321m_-7433386101044745052m_-6983849400475805655m_-887900178935194201yiv9730379566m_4297680350071053696m_-2830288227375411120Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="none"><div>Not really correct. Final league ranking submitted to IFPA/WPPR is based on league points within division -- so all A players stacked in order of league points earned, then all the B players stacked in order of league points earned, etc. So if league ended today, it'd be a single division (because divisions aren't established until a minimum number of weeks elapse), and the WPPR results would be submitted exactly in the order shown in the "Overall Standings" table, with you way above Rob.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>What you're probably thinking of: It is true that division assignments are based on your average group (more accurately, your average ladder position) across the middle 6 weeks of the season, so there is some small but non-zero chance that getting kicked up a group due to effective points could be just enough to nudge someone up a division. Not saying that it *never* happens, but I suspect it's pretty unusual... and if margins are that close, it's probably just as easy to point to any number of games over the course of the season where a modest number of machine points one way or the other would have been enough to swing things.</div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br clear="none"></div><div>--Joe</div><div><br clear="none"></div></div>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
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