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<div dir="auto">Groups do matter. I don’t understand why we are arguing. I just dropped another group because I’m playing really poorly so far. There are events that could change that like people dropping out or joining in late, but otherwise it’s set.</div>
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Steve</div>
<div name="messageReplySection">On Jun 30, 2021, 9:29 PM -0400, Bob K Mertz via FSPA <fspa@fspazone.org>, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="border-left-color: grey; border-left-width: thin; border-left-style: solid; margin: 5px 5px;padding-left: 10px;">All that may be true but that's literally what this argument seems to be<br />
about... The groups don't matter so we should all just ignore them .....<br />
but here's a list of the groups that don't matter anyway because it's<br />
interesting but, remember, they don't matter.<br />
<br />
I'll be honest with you, I've been in FSPA for years and until this<br />
discussion began I always thought it was set in stone that if you win<br />
your group you move up to the next group and if you lose you move down a<br />
group and that the ladder was a completely seperate thing (perhaps this<br />
is why it seems like I feel the "taking 0s" thing is more absurd than<br />
others). My understanding of that was based solely on what I saw every<br />
week - for all of those years. It's easy to say that it's just always<br />
been about the ladder but for those of us that have watched the grouping<br />
formula consistently remain true week after week it *feels* like you're<br />
rewriting the rules even though you aren't.<br />
<br />
I agree that it's interesting to know where you are playing next week<br />
but if that's not set in stone then it's a "fantasy". Those fantasies<br />
may essentially be fact right now since no one ever seems to actually<br />
change the groups before league but watching the FSPA leaders get upset<br />
because no one seems to comprehend that groupings don't matter while<br />
they simultaneously say they are important because they are interesting<br />
only adds to the confusion.<br />
<br />
Obviously I've not understood this system and I never had any reason to<br />
expect that I didn't. Previously I just ignore emails that turn into<br />
these huge discussions but I got caught up in this one..... From a<br />
practical sense others in the league may be making the same assumptions<br />
I had been and having no reason to ask how things really work and aren't<br />
reading this discussion to learn otherwise.<br />
<br />
I've never felt comfortable really voicing my opinions about these huge<br />
issues because it always seems to turn into a battle with those that<br />
have been in FSPA for more than 10 years..... It usually doesn't seem<br />
the take away ever is "hey, new comers or even those who have been<br />
around for less than 15 years may see things differently". This time I<br />
might have actually learned something but I'm not expecting the outcome<br />
to be any different than any other huge discussion about the league.<br />
<br />
<br />
On 6/30/21 3:46 PM, steve wrote:<br />
<blockquote type="cite">Bob, what you are highlighting is a byproduct of practical<br />
implementation details.<br />
<br />
Sure we could not publish groups as part of prior week's results, but<br />
knowing where people are playing is very interesting stuff to most<br />
people. And in the VAST majority of cases, what was projected when last<br />
week's results, will still ring true when the next week starts. So, for<br />
the majority of cases, it's GOOD info and accurate to the future. I<br />
mean.. if you wanted to get technical, maybe the right takeaway is to<br />
label the table "Projected Groups"<br />
<br />
The software is just presenting a simplified view of the world for easy<br />
consumption. Prior implementation were more precise and dumped more<br />
details, but most didn't use the info anyway, so it was streamlined.<br />
The 'next week' table really shows two things - The stacked ladder, and<br />
groupings overlaid on that if things stay as they did when the<br />
scoresheet was published.<br />
<br />
People are just holding onto it 'too tightly' vs what the information<br />
really is.<br />
<br />
<blockquote type="cite">TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we<br /></blockquote>
get emails that paint a<br />
<blockquote type="cite">picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.<br /></blockquote>
<br />
That is a misunderstanding of what is being said. No one said<br />
'groupings don't matter'. It's that groupings are not what is SET first<br />
nor are the 'fixed'. They come last and are laid over whatever other<br />
decisions are made ahead of it. The tail doesn't wag the dog...<br />
<br />
-Steve<br />
<br />
On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EDT, Bob K Mertz via FSPA<br />
<fspa@fspazone.org> wrote:<br />
<br />
<br />
I think there is another huge problem being overlooked.... Well, the<br />
creation of that problem is being overlooked. You're right that the<br />
ladder doesn't gel well in the minds of many (myself often included) and<br />
the one thing that seemingly is repeated over and over here is that<br />
groups are never assigned until just before league starts......<br />
...... Except that we get an email that tells us what group we are in<br />
next week as soon as the results are posted.<br />
<br />
I trust the ladder and I trust that the software is doing is thing so<br />
why do the results emails we get try to paint a picture in the hopes of<br />
explaining something that, apparently, doesn't at all seem to be the<br />
case? Just don't tell us on advance what our groups are (or are supposed<br />
to be) and tell us what groups we are in when we start league play and<br />
this "false narrative" eventually disappears.<br />
<br />
TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we get<br />
emails that paint a picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.<br />
<br />
<br />
On June 30, 2021 1:45:54 PM EDT, steve via FSPA <fspa@fspazone.org> wrote:<br />
<br />
<blockquote type="cite">The difference with FSPA seems to be that you guys try to<br /></blockquote>
'pre-make' your groups of 3,<br />
<blockquote type="cite">which obviously causes scrambling when people don't show<br /></blockquote>
<br />
There are no 'pre-made' groups. This is a common misunderstanding<br />
about Groups in the FSPA design. Groups are not pre-set before<br />
league... a SLO could define groups at 5mins before league start if<br />
they needed to. What is 'fixed' in the FSPA system is the LADDER -<br />
which is the stacking of players in order which serves as the<br />
fundamental handicapping system in the FSPA match play system. The<br />
ladder starts with everyone's initial seeding, and is refined each<br />
week by the movement defined by player performance against their<br />
peers. Group movement is the feedback loop that 'refines' the<br />
ladder each week. (Group Movement also gives people more variety in<br />
competition you see.. but that's more a side-benefit)<br />
<br />
FSPA is a match play system.. so a fundamental concept in match play<br />
is "Who do you play in your match"<br />
<br />
You could have<br />
- random assignments<br />
- groupings based on skill assessment/external rankings<br />
- some non-random scheme designed to rotate or assign people by some<br />
distribution (Example: Round robin)<br />
<br />
The first and third systems generally will mix up players of<br />
different skill, and there are pros and cons to such models. But<br />
over the long haul, you can expect the better players to score<br />
better at the expense of their under matched opponents.<br />
<br />
The second model tries to group similar skilled players together.<br />
But is highly dependent on how you measure/assess/assign those skill<br />
rankings. This is difficult to do with new players, new locations, etc.<br />
<br />
Systems like Pinburgh were 'skill' based, but rather have you only<br />
play against your peers, it used a converging model. So #1 didn't<br />
always play against #1, #2, #3, they played against other ranks<br />
until ultimately converging there. Like the FSPA model, their<br />
'ranking' was not fixed, but refined each round based on<br />
performance. (They used total points, FSPA instead uses group<br />
promotion/demotion to refine your rank in the ladder).<br />
<br />
FSPA fundamentally is setup to allow players of different skill<br />
levels to compete together. This isn't just about breaking into<br />
divisions. It's the fundamental concept that we have inherent<br />
handicapping built into the system by grouping similar skill levels<br />
together. This functions so it makes sense to compare the 12 points<br />
I got in a week in group 1, to someone in group 4 who also got 12<br />
points. We both got 12 points... are we equal players? Probably<br />
not, but our handicapped output is the same.. and you win/lose the<br />
overall league based on your handicapped output - your match points.<br />
<br />
The premise of allowing players of different skill level to compete<br />
and enjoy league is one of the core premises behind the FSPA rules<br />
design.<br />
<br />
Everyone generally agrees getting creamed in a group is not fun long<br />
term - thus there is extra attention to the idea of not placing<br />
players where they would be setup for failure for no fault of their<br />
own. Additionally, on the competitive side, it creates significant<br />
disparities when people are not aligned with their skill group,<br />
while other players are. (easier/harder to get points, etc)<br />
<br />
The point of all this is to try to explain why the Ladder is a<br />
central pillar of the concept of how we pair players to play<br />
together. The more you move people around, the more you shake the<br />
principal of how people are intended to be 'fairly' matched up which<br />
is how we establish the equality of match points between different<br />
groups.<br />
<br />
Match points are comparable across groups as the measure of success<br />
because of handicapping. Instead of adding/subtracting to scores as<br />
a handicap, we use who you compete against as the handicapping in<br />
the system. The ladder is the construct to do this.<br />
<br />
<br />
*So, TLDR - what the f are you talking about?* It's important you<br />
keep people playing against similar skill (within our ability) as a<br />
fundamental construct of how the competitive and fun factors of our<br />
scoring model operates. Obviously you can start over with another<br />
model entirely, and do away with the handicap FSPA is built on, but<br />
understand it's not just a 'group change' but cuts much deeper when<br />
you move people around the ladder or who they are grouped with.<br />
<br />
Skipping people not present when grouping is entirely feasible, the<br />
messier part is how to systematically handle group movement after<br />
the fact. It would probably look a LOT more messy to players to<br />
understand. (only move winners and losers from their initial<br />
position, not where they actually played, etc).<br />
<br />
But players don't generally understand ladder movement in the first<br />
place... so... :)<br />
<br />
<br />
On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 10:16:19 AM EDT, Elliott Keith via FSPA<br />
<fspa@fspazone.org> wrote:<br />
<br />
<br />
Even though I had to drop out of MOM's league this season due to<br />
personal stuff, I felt the need to chime in with a 'simple' solution.<br />
<br />
Pretty much every other league I've played in besides FSPA had a<br />
drop 2 format, with no headache. The difference with FSPA seems to<br />
be that you guys try to 'pre-make' your groups of 3, which obviously<br />
causes scrambling when people don't show. The 'drop 2' and 'pre-made<br />
groups' just don't seem compatible to me. Most all other leagues<br />
randomly dole out groups at the start of the night, and<br />
Crabtowne's league had a 'division split' halfway through so you'd<br />
play with people somewhat around your skill level.<br />
<br />
My solution idea is that instead of trying to 'pre-make' groups, why<br />
not just keep track of ladder position? Like, after confirming who's<br />
not there, the top three present are group 1, next three group 2,<br />
etc. all the way down, with the last group being a 4 or 2 if<br />
necessary. Keeps the similar skill level thing going, and seems<br />
pretty easy to implement, since you guys keep track of that anyway.<br />
<br />
Just my two cents. Hope to be back in a league next season, and<br />
happy 4th!<br />
<br />
-Elliott<br />
<br />
On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Rob Wintler-Cox via FSPA<br />
<fspa@fspazone.org <mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>> wrote:<br />
<br />
On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:38 AM Daniel Northover<br />
<northovr@verizon.net <mailto:northovr@verizon.net>> wrote:<br />
<br />
Just ribbing you Rob your doing a awesome job<br />
<br />
<br />
After last week my ribs are pretty sore. ;)<br />
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