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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Anyone know the rule on how many forfeits this year before getting kicked out? Used to be 8 but that was with up to 3 weeks of pre-plays for a no show of 5
weeks out of 10. I’m guessing you don’t show 4 weeks and you’re out?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> FSPA [mailto:fspa-bounces@fspazone.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Hubbard via FSPA<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 30, 2021 10:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> FSPA main discussion list<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dave Hubbard<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FSPA] Preplays are better<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> There are events that could change that like people dropping out or joining in late, but otherwise it’s set.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That's why it's incorrect to say that next week's groups are set in stone. They can change. In fact, section 6.4 lays out how to deal with drop-outs.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Whether this is a good system or not is of course a matter of opinion. I'm personally not a fan of declaring next week's groups ahead of time and potentially playing with a physical 2 or 1-player group (preplays or not) but that's the
system we have.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> --- Dave<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 PM Stephen Jonke via FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Groups do matter. I don’t understand why we are arguing. I just dropped another group because I’m playing really poorly so far. There are events that could change that like people dropping out or joining in late, but otherwise it’s set.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 30, 2021, 9:29 PM -0400, Bob K Mertz via FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>>, wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All that may be true but that's literally what this argument seems to be<br>
about... The groups don't matter so we should all just ignore them .....<br>
but here's a list of the groups that don't matter anyway because it's<br>
interesting but, remember, they don't matter.<br>
<br>
I'll be honest with you, I've been in FSPA for years and until this<br>
discussion began I always thought it was set in stone that if you win<br>
your group you move up to the next group and if you lose you move down a<br>
group and that the ladder was a completely seperate thing (perhaps this<br>
is why it seems like I feel the "taking 0s" thing is more absurd than<br>
others). My understanding of that was based solely on what I saw every<br>
week - for all of those years. It's easy to say that it's just always<br>
been about the ladder but for those of us that have watched the grouping<br>
formula consistently remain true week after week it *feels* like you're<br>
rewriting the rules even though you aren't.<br>
<br>
I agree that it's interesting to know where you are playing next week<br>
but if that's not set in stone then it's a "fantasy". Those fantasies<br>
may essentially be fact right now since no one ever seems to actually<br>
change the groups before league but watching the FSPA leaders get upset<br>
because no one seems to comprehend that groupings don't matter while<br>
they simultaneously say they are important because they are interesting<br>
only adds to the confusion.<br>
<br>
Obviously I've not understood this system and I never had any reason to<br>
expect that I didn't. Previously I just ignore emails that turn into<br>
these huge discussions but I got caught up in this one..... From a<br>
practical sense others in the league may be making the same assumptions<br>
I had been and having no reason to ask how things really work and aren't<br>
reading this discussion to learn otherwise.<br>
<br>
I've never felt comfortable really voicing my opinions about these huge<br>
issues because it always seems to turn into a battle with those that<br>
have been in FSPA for more than 10 years..... It usually doesn't seem<br>
the take away ever is "hey, new comers or even those who have been<br>
around for less than 15 years may see things differently". This time I<br>
might have actually learned something but I'm not expecting the outcome<br>
to be any different than any other huge discussion about the league.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/30/21 3:46 PM, steve wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob, what you are highlighting is a byproduct of practical<br>
implementation details.<br>
<br>
Sure we could not publish groups as part of prior week's results, but<br>
knowing where people are playing is very interesting stuff to most<br>
people. And in the VAST majority of cases, what was projected when last<br>
week's results, will still ring true when the next week starts. So, for<br>
the majority of cases, it's GOOD info and accurate to the future. I<br>
mean.. if you wanted to get technical, maybe the right takeaway is to<br>
label the table "Projected Groups"<br>
<br>
The software is just presenting a simplified view of the world for easy<br>
consumption. Prior implementation were more precise and dumped more<br>
details, but most didn't use the info anyway, so it was streamlined.<br>
The 'next week' table really shows two things - The stacked ladder, and<br>
groupings overlaid on that if things stay as they did when the<br>
scoresheet was published.<br>
<br>
People are just holding onto it 'too tightly' vs what the information<br>
really is.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">get emails that paint a<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
That is a misunderstanding of what is being said. No one said<br>
'groupings don't matter'. It's that groupings are not what is SET first<br>
nor are the 'fixed'. They come last and are laid over whatever other<br>
decisions are made ahead of it. The tail doesn't wag the dog...<br>
<br>
-Steve<br>
<br>
On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EDT, Bob K Mertz via FSPA<br>
<<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
I think there is another huge problem being overlooked.... Well, the<br>
creation of that problem is being overlooked. You're right that the<br>
ladder doesn't gel well in the minds of many (myself often included) and<br>
the one thing that seemingly is repeated over and over here is that<br>
groups are never assigned until just before league starts......<br>
...... Except that we get an email that tells us what group we are in<br>
next week as soon as the results are posted.<br>
<br>
I trust the ladder and I trust that the software is doing is thing so<br>
why do the results emails we get try to paint a picture in the hopes of<br>
explaining something that, apparently, doesn't at all seem to be the<br>
case? Just don't tell us on advance what our groups are (or are supposed<br>
to be) and tell us what groups we are in when we start league play and<br>
this "false narrative" eventually disappears.<br>
<br>
TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we get<br>
emails that paint a picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.<br>
<br>
<br>
On June 30, 2021 1:45:54 PM EDT, steve via FSPA <<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The difference with FSPA seems to be that you guys try to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">'pre-make' your groups of 3,<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">which obviously causes scrambling when people don't show<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
There are no 'pre-made' groups. This is a common misunderstanding<br>
about Groups in the FSPA design. Groups are not pre-set before<br>
league... a SLO could define groups at 5mins before league start if<br>
they needed to. What is 'fixed' in the FSPA system is the LADDER -<br>
which is the stacking of players in order which serves as the<br>
fundamental handicapping system in the FSPA match play system. The<br>
ladder starts with everyone's initial seeding, and is refined each<br>
week by the movement defined by player performance against their<br>
peers. Group movement is the feedback loop that 'refines' the<br>
ladder each week. (Group Movement also gives people more variety in<br>
competition you see.. but that's more a side-benefit)<br>
<br>
FSPA is a match play system.. so a fundamental concept in match play<br>
is "Who do you play in your match"<br>
<br>
You could have<br>
- random assignments<br>
- groupings based on skill assessment/external rankings<br>
- some non-random scheme designed to rotate or assign people by some<br>
distribution (Example: Round robin)<br>
<br>
The first and third systems generally will mix up players of<br>
different skill, and there are pros and cons to such models. But<br>
over the long haul, you can expect the better players to score<br>
better at the expense of their under matched opponents.<br>
<br>
The second model tries to group similar skilled players together.<br>
But is highly dependent on how you measure/assess/assign those skill<br>
rankings. This is difficult to do with new players, new locations, etc.<br>
<br>
Systems like Pinburgh were 'skill' based, but rather have you only<br>
play against your peers, it used a converging model. So #1 didn't<br>
always play against #1, #2, #3, they played against other ranks<br>
until ultimately converging there. Like the FSPA model, their<br>
'ranking' was not fixed, but refined each round based on<br>
performance. (They used total points, FSPA instead uses group<br>
promotion/demotion to refine your rank in the ladder).<br>
<br>
FSPA fundamentally is setup to allow players of different skill<br>
levels to compete together. This isn't just about breaking into<br>
divisions. It's the fundamental concept that we have inherent<br>
handicapping built into the system by grouping similar skill levels<br>
together. This functions so it makes sense to compare the 12 points<br>
I got in a week in group 1, to someone in group 4 who also got 12<br>
points. We both got 12 points... are we equal players? Probably<br>
not, but our handicapped output is the same.. and you win/lose the<br>
overall league based on your handicapped output - your match points.<br>
<br>
The premise of allowing players of different skill level to compete<br>
and enjoy league is one of the core premises behind the FSPA rules<br>
design.<br>
<br>
Everyone generally agrees getting creamed in a group is not fun long<br>
term - thus there is extra attention to the idea of not placing<br>
players where they would be setup for failure for no fault of their<br>
own. Additionally, on the competitive side, it creates significant<br>
disparities when people are not aligned with their skill group,<br>
while other players are. (easier/harder to get points, etc)<br>
<br>
The point of all this is to try to explain why the Ladder is a<br>
central pillar of the concept of how we pair players to play<br>
together. The more you move people around, the more you shake the<br>
principal of how people are intended to be 'fairly' matched up which<br>
is how we establish the equality of match points between different<br>
groups.<br>
<br>
Match points are comparable across groups as the measure of success<br>
because of handicapping. Instead of adding/subtracting to scores as<br>
a handicap, we use who you compete against as the handicapping in<br>
the system. The ladder is the construct to do this.<br>
<br>
<br>
*So, TLDR - what the f are you talking about?* It's important you<br>
keep people playing against similar skill (within our ability) as a<br>
fundamental construct of how the competitive and fun factors of our<br>
scoring model operates. Obviously you can start over with another<br>
model entirely, and do away with the handicap FSPA is built on, but<br>
understand it's not just a 'group change' but cuts much deeper when<br>
you move people around the ladder or who they are grouped with.<br>
<br>
Skipping people not present when grouping is entirely feasible, the<br>
messier part is how to systematically handle group movement after<br>
the fact. It would probably look a LOT more messy to players to<br>
understand. (only move winners and losers from their initial<br>
position, not where they actually played, etc).<br>
<br>
But players don't generally understand ladder movement in the first<br>
place... so... :)<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 10:16:19 AM EDT, Elliott Keith via FSPA<br>
<<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Even though I had to drop out of MOM's league this season due to<br>
personal stuff, I felt the need to chime in with a 'simple' solution.<br>
<br>
Pretty much every other league I've played in besides FSPA had a<br>
drop 2 format, with no headache. The difference with FSPA seems to<br>
be that you guys try to 'pre-make' your groups of 3, which obviously<br>
causes scrambling when people don't show. The 'drop 2' and 'pre-made<br>
groups' just don't seem compatible to me. Most all other leagues<br>
randomly dole out groups at the start of the night, and<br>
Crabtowne's league had a 'division split' halfway through so you'd<br>
play with people somewhat around your skill level.<br>
<br>
My solution idea is that instead of trying to 'pre-make' groups, why<br>
not just keep track of ladder position? Like, after confirming who's<br>
not there, the top three present are group 1, next three group 2,<br>
etc. all the way down, with the last group being a 4 or 2 if<br>
necessary. Keeps the similar skill level thing going, and seems<br>
pretty easy to implement, since you guys keep track of that anyway.<br>
<br>
Just my two cents. Hope to be back in a league next season, and<br>
happy 4th!<br>
<br>
-Elliott<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Rob Wintler-Cox via FSPA<br>
<<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:fspa@fspazone.org" target="_blank">fspa@fspazone.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:38 AM Daniel Northover<br>
<<a href="mailto:northovr@verizon.net" target="_blank">northovr@verizon.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:northovr@verizon.net" target="_blank">northovr@verizon.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Just ribbing you Rob your doing a awesome job<br>
<br>
<br>
After last week my ribs are pretty sore. ;)<br>
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--<br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.<br>
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