[FSPA] Preplays are better

Thu Jul 1 09:01:41 EDT 2021

Our thought was, by the time you missed 4 weeks you've missed half the
season.  I like Brian's approach.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:54 AM Bob K Mertz via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
wrote:

> IIRC Ocelot told me that I could likely miss 3 weeks but they weren't
> totally sure. I asked on the list here and never got an official answer.
>
> On July 1, 2021 8:49:29 AM EDT, Bryan H via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> That is a season specific setting in the software...default is 8 forfeits
>> (2 weeks) I believe.
>>
>> I don't know that anyone talked explicitly about it, but I assumed that
>> with the drop 2, you'd be able to drop those 2 weeks and then also forfeit
>> 2 more weeks for a total of 4 weeks missed.
>>
>> That's the way I plan to treat it at Lost Rhino.  SLO can also make
>> determinations of which FORFEIT code to use for a match to control this.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> Bryan
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:43 AM Kevin Stone via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone know the rule on how many forfeits this year before getting
>>> kicked out?  Used to be 8 but that was with up to 3 weeks of pre-plays for
>>> a no show of 5 weeks out of 10.  I’m guessing you don’t show 4 weeks and
>>> you’re out?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* FSPA [mailto:fspa-bounces at fspazone.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave
>>> Hubbard via FSPA
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 30, 2021 10:57 PM
>>> *To:* FSPA main discussion list
>>> *Cc:* Dave Hubbard
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FSPA] Preplays are better
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > There are events that could change that like people dropping out or
>>> joining in late, but otherwise it’s set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's why it's incorrect to say that next week's groups are set in
>>> stone.  They can change.  In fact, section 6.4 lays out how to deal with
>>> drop-outs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whether this is a good system or not is of course a matter of opinion.
>>> I'm personally not a fan of declaring next week's groups ahead of time and
>>> potentially playing with a physical 2 or 1-player group (preplays or not)
>>> but that's the system we have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>            --- Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 PM Stephen Jonke via FSPA <
>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Groups do matter. I don’t understand why we are arguing. I just dropped
>>> another group because I’m playing really poorly so far. There are events
>>> that could change that like people dropping out or joining in late, but
>>> otherwise it’s set.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Jun 30, 2021, 9:29 PM -0400, Bob K Mertz via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>,
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> All that may be true but that's literally what this argument seems to be
>>> about... The groups don't matter so we should all just ignore them .....
>>> but here's a list of the groups that don't matter anyway because it's
>>> interesting but, remember, they don't matter.
>>>
>>> I'll be honest with you, I've been in FSPA for years and until this
>>> discussion began I always thought it was set in stone that if you win
>>> your group you move up to the next group and if you lose you move down a
>>> group and that the ladder was a completely seperate thing (perhaps this
>>> is why it seems like I feel the "taking 0s" thing is more absurd than
>>> others). My understanding of that was based solely on what I saw every
>>> week - for all of those years. It's easy to say that it's just always
>>> been about the ladder but for those of us that have watched the grouping
>>> formula consistently remain true week after week it *feels* like you're
>>> rewriting the rules even though you aren't.
>>>
>>> I agree that it's interesting to know where you are playing next week
>>> but if that's not set in stone then it's a "fantasy". Those fantasies
>>> may essentially be fact right now since no one ever seems to actually
>>> change the groups before league but watching the FSPA leaders get upset
>>> because no one seems to comprehend that groupings don't matter while
>>> they simultaneously say they are important because they are interesting
>>> only adds to the confusion.
>>>
>>> Obviously I've not understood this system and I never had any reason to
>>> expect that I didn't. Previously I just ignore emails that turn into
>>> these huge discussions but I got caught up in this one..... From a
>>> practical sense others in the league may be making the same assumptions
>>> I had been and having no reason to ask how things really work and aren't
>>> reading this discussion to learn otherwise.
>>>
>>> I've never felt comfortable really voicing my opinions about these huge
>>> issues because it always seems to turn into a battle with those that
>>> have been in FSPA for more than 10 years..... It usually doesn't seem
>>> the take away ever is "hey, new comers or even those who have been
>>> around for less than 15 years may see things differently". This time I
>>> might have actually learned something but I'm not expecting the outcome
>>> to be any different than any other huge discussion about the league.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/30/21 3:46 PM, steve wrote:
>>>
>>> Bob, what you are highlighting is a byproduct of practical
>>> implementation details.
>>>
>>> Sure we could not publish groups as part of prior week's results, but
>>> knowing where people are playing is very interesting stuff to most
>>> people.  And in the VAST majority of cases, what was projected when last
>>> week's results, will still ring true when the next week starts.  So, for
>>> the majority of cases, it's GOOD info and accurate to the future.  I
>>> mean.. if you wanted to get technical, maybe the right takeaway is to
>>> label the table "Projected Groups"
>>>
>>> The software is just presenting a simplified view of the world for easy
>>> consumption.  Prior implementation were more precise and dumped more
>>> details, but most didn't use the info anyway, so it was streamlined.
>>> The 'next week' table really shows two things - The stacked ladder, and
>>> groupings overlaid on that if things stay as they did when the
>>> scoresheet was published.
>>>
>>> People are just holding onto it 'too tightly' vs what the information
>>> really is.
>>>
>>>
>>> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we
>>>
>>> get emails that paint a
>>>
>>> picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is a misunderstanding of what is being said.  No one said
>>> 'groupings don't matter'.  It's that groupings are not what is SET first
>>> nor are the 'fixed'.  They come last and are laid over whatever other
>>> decisions are made ahead of it.  The tail doesn't wag the dog...
>>>
>>> -Steve
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EDT, Bob K Mertz via FSPA
>>> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I think there is another huge problem being overlooked.... Well, the
>>> creation of that problem is being overlooked. You're right that the
>>> ladder doesn't gel well in the minds of many (myself often included) and
>>> the one thing that seemingly is repeated over and over here is that
>>> groups are never assigned until just before league starts......
>>> ...... Except that we get an email that tells us what group we are in
>>> next week as soon as the results are posted.
>>>
>>> I trust the ladder and I trust that the software is doing is thing so
>>> why do the results emails we get try to paint a picture in the hopes of
>>> explaining something that, apparently, doesn't at all seem to be the
>>> case? Just don't tell us on advance what our groups are (or are supposed
>>> to be) and tell us what groups we are in when we start league play and
>>> this "false narrative" eventually disappears.
>>>
>>> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we get
>>> emails that paint a picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.
>>>
>>>
>>> On June 30, 2021 1:45:54 PM EDT, steve via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The difference with FSPA seems to be that you guys try to
>>>
>>> 'pre-make' your groups of 3,
>>>
>>> which obviously causes scrambling when people don't show
>>>
>>>
>>> There are no 'pre-made' groups.  This is a common misunderstanding
>>> about Groups in the FSPA design.  Groups are not pre-set before
>>> league... a SLO could define groups at 5mins before league start if
>>> they needed to.  What is 'fixed' in the FSPA system is the LADDER -
>>> which is the stacking of players in order which serves as the
>>> fundamental handicapping system in the FSPA match play system.  The
>>> ladder starts with everyone's initial seeding, and is refined each
>>> week by the movement defined by player performance against their
>>> peers.  Group movement is the feedback loop that 'refines' the
>>> ladder each week.  (Group Movement also gives people more variety in
>>> competition you see.. but that's more a side-benefit)
>>>
>>> FSPA is a match play system.. so a fundamental concept in match play
>>> is "Who do you play in your match"
>>>
>>> You could have
>>> - random assignments
>>> - groupings based on skill assessment/external rankings
>>> - some non-random scheme designed to rotate or assign people by some
>>> distribution (Example: Round robin)
>>>
>>> The first and third systems generally will mix up players of
>>> different skill, and there are pros and cons to such models.  But
>>> over the long haul, you can expect the better players to score
>>> better at the expense of their under matched opponents.
>>>
>>> The second model tries to group similar skilled players together.
>>> But is highly dependent on how you measure/assess/assign those skill
>>> rankings.  This is difficult to do with new players, new locations, etc.
>>>
>>> Systems like Pinburgh were 'skill' based, but rather have you only
>>> play against your peers, it used a converging model.  So #1 didn't
>>> always play against #1, #2, #3, they played against other ranks
>>> until ultimately converging there.  Like the FSPA model, their
>>> 'ranking' was not fixed, but refined each round based on
>>> performance.  (They used total points, FSPA instead uses group
>>> promotion/demotion to refine your rank in the ladder).
>>>
>>> FSPA fundamentally is setup to allow players of different skill
>>> levels to compete together.  This isn't just about breaking into
>>> divisions.  It's the fundamental concept that we have inherent
>>> handicapping built into the system by grouping similar skill levels
>>> together.  This functions so it makes sense to compare the 12 points
>>> I got in a week in group 1, to someone in group 4 who also got 12
>>> points.  We both got 12 points...  are we equal players?  Probably
>>> not, but our handicapped output is the same.. and you win/lose the
>>> overall league based on your handicapped output - your match points.
>>>
>>> The premise of allowing players of different skill level to compete
>>> and enjoy league is one of the core premises behind the FSPA rules
>>> design.
>>>
>>> Everyone generally agrees getting creamed in a group is not fun long
>>> term - thus there is extra attention to the idea of not placing
>>> players where they would be setup for failure for no fault of their
>>> own.  Additionally, on the competitive side, it creates significant
>>> disparities when people are not aligned with their skill group,
>>> while other players are.  (easier/harder to get points, etc)
>>>
>>> The point of all this is to try to explain why the Ladder is a
>>> central pillar of the concept of how we pair players to play
>>> together.  The more you move people around, the more you shake the
>>> principal of how people are intended to be 'fairly' matched up which
>>> is how we establish the equality of match points between different
>>> groups.
>>>
>>> Match points are comparable across groups as the measure of success
>>> because of handicapping.  Instead of adding/subtracting to scores as
>>> a handicap, we use who you compete against as the handicapping in
>>> the system.  The ladder is the construct to do this.
>>>
>>>
>>> *So, TLDR - what the f are you talking about?*  It's important you
>>> keep people playing against similar skill (within our ability) as a
>>> fundamental construct of how the competitive and fun factors of our
>>> scoring model operates.  Obviously you can start over with another
>>> model entirely, and do away with the handicap FSPA is built on, but
>>> understand it's not just a 'group change' but cuts much deeper when
>>> you move people around the ladder or who they are grouped with.
>>>
>>> Skipping people not present when grouping is entirely feasible, the
>>> messier part is how to systematically handle group movement after
>>> the fact.  It would probably look a LOT more messy to players to
>>> understand.  (only move winners and losers from their initial
>>> position, not where they actually played, etc).
>>>
>>> But players don't generally understand ladder movement in the first
>>> place... so...  :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 10:16:19 AM EDT, Elliott Keith via FSPA
>>> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Even though I had to drop out of MOM's league this season due to
>>> personal stuff, I felt the need to chime in with a 'simple' solution.
>>>
>>> Pretty much every other league I've played in besides FSPA had a
>>> drop 2 format, with no headache. The difference with FSPA seems to
>>> be that you guys try to 'pre-make' your groups of 3, which obviously
>>> causes scrambling when people don't show. The 'drop 2' and 'pre-made
>>> groups' just don't seem compatible to me. Most all other leagues
>>> randomly dole out groups at the start of the night, and
>>> Crabtowne's league had a 'division split' halfway through so you'd
>>> play with people somewhat around your skill level.
>>>
>>> My solution idea is that instead of trying to 'pre-make' groups, why
>>> not just keep track of ladder position? Like, after confirming who's
>>> not there, the top three present are group 1, next three group 2,
>>> etc. all the way down, with the last group being a 4 or 2 if
>>> necessary. Keeps the similar skill level thing going, and seems
>>> pretty easy to implement, since you guys keep track of that anyway.
>>>
>>> Just my two cents. Hope to be back in a league next season, and
>>> happy 4th!
>>>
>>> -Elliott
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Rob Wintler-Cox via FSPA
>>> <fspa at fspazone.org <mailto:fspa at fspazone.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:38 AM Daniel Northover
>>> <northovr at verizon.net <mailto:northovr at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just ribbing you Rob your doing a awesome job
>>>
>>>
>>> After last week my ribs are pretty sore. ;)
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