[FSPA] Preplays are better

[Bob K Mertz]

IIRC Ocelot told me that I could likely miss 3 weeks but they weren't totally sure.  I asked on the list here and never got an official answer.

On July 1, 2021 8:49:29 AM EDT, Bryan H via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>That is a season specific setting in the software...default is 8
>forfeits
>(2 weeks) I believe.
>
>I don't know that anyone talked explicitly about it, but I assumed that
>with the drop 2, you'd be able to drop those 2 weeks and then also
>forfeit
>2 more weeks for a total of 4 weeks missed.
>
>That's the way I plan to treat it at Lost Rhino.  SLO can also make
>determinations of which FORFEIT code to use for a match to control
>this.
>
>Hope that helps,
>Bryan
>
>On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:43 AM Kevin Stone via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>wrote:
>
>> Anyone know the rule on how many forfeits this year before getting
>kicked
>> out?  Used to be 8 but that was with up to 3 weeks of pre-plays for a
>no
>> show of 5 weeks out of 10.  I’m guessing you don’t show 4 weeks and
>you’re
>> out?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* FSPA [mailto:fspa-bounces at fspazone.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave
>> Hubbard via FSPA
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 30, 2021 10:57 PM
>> *To:* FSPA main discussion list
>> *Cc:* Dave Hubbard
>> *Subject:* Re: [FSPA] Preplays are better
>>
>>
>>
>> > There are events that could change that like people dropping out or
>> joining in late, but otherwise it’s set.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's why it's incorrect to say that next week's groups are set in
>> stone.  They can change.  In fact, section 6.4 lays out how to deal
>with
>> drop-outs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whether this is a good system or not is of course a matter of
>opinion.
>> I'm personally not a fan of declaring next week's groups ahead of
>time and
>> potentially playing with a physical 2 or 1-player group (preplays or
>not)
>> but that's the system we have.
>>
>>
>>
>>            --- Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 PM Stephen Jonke via FSPA
><fspa at fspazone.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Groups do matter. I don’t understand why we are arguing. I just
>dropped
>> another group because I’m playing really poorly so far. There are
>events
>> that could change that like people dropping out or joining in late,
>but
>> otherwise it’s set.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2021, 9:29 PM -0400, Bob K Mertz via FSPA
><fspa at fspazone.org>,
>> wrote:
>>
>> All that may be true but that's literally what this argument seems to
>be
>> about... The groups don't matter so we should all just ignore them
>.....
>> but here's a list of the groups that don't matter anyway because it's
>> interesting but, remember, they don't matter.
>>
>> I'll be honest with you, I've been in FSPA for years and until this
>> discussion began I always thought it was set in stone that if you win
>> your group you move up to the next group and if you lose you move
>down a
>> group and that the ladder was a completely seperate thing (perhaps
>this
>> is why it seems like I feel the "taking 0s" thing is more absurd than
>> others). My understanding of that was based solely on what I saw
>every
>> week - for all of those years. It's easy to say that it's just always
>> been about the ladder but for those of us that have watched the
>grouping
>> formula consistently remain true week after week it *feels* like
>you're
>> rewriting the rules even though you aren't.
>>
>> I agree that it's interesting to know where you are playing next week
>> but if that's not set in stone then it's a "fantasy". Those fantasies
>> may essentially be fact right now since no one ever seems to actually
>> change the groups before league but watching the FSPA leaders get
>upset
>> because no one seems to comprehend that groupings don't matter while
>> they simultaneously say they are important because they are
>interesting
>> only adds to the confusion.
>>
>> Obviously I've not understood this system and I never had any reason
>to
>> expect that I didn't. Previously I just ignore emails that turn into
>> these huge discussions but I got caught up in this one..... From a
>> practical sense others in the league may be making the same
>assumptions
>> I had been and having no reason to ask how things really work and
>aren't
>> reading this discussion to learn otherwise.
>>
>> I've never felt comfortable really voicing my opinions about these
>huge
>> issues because it always seems to turn into a battle with those that
>> have been in FSPA for more than 10 years..... It usually doesn't seem
>> the take away ever is "hey, new comers or even those who have been
>> around for less than 15 years may see things differently". This time
>I
>> might have actually learned something but I'm not expecting the
>outcome
>> to be any different than any other huge discussion about the league.
>>
>>
>> On 6/30/21 3:46 PM, steve wrote:
>>
>> Bob, what you are highlighting is a byproduct of practical
>> implementation details.
>>
>> Sure we could not publish groups as part of prior week's results, but
>> knowing where people are playing is very interesting stuff to most
>> people.  And in the VAST majority of cases, what was projected when
>last
>> week's results, will still ring true when the next week starts.  So,
>for
>> the majority of cases, it's GOOD info and accurate to the future.  I
>> mean.. if you wanted to get technical, maybe the right takeaway is to
>> label the table "Projected Groups"
>>
>> The software is just presenting a simplified view of the world for
>easy
>> consumption.  Prior implementation were more precise and dumped more
>> details, but most didn't use the info anyway, so it was streamlined.
>> The 'next week' table really shows two things - The stacked ladder,
>and
>> groupings overlaid on that if things stay as they did when the
>> scoresheet was published.
>>
>> People are just holding onto it 'too tightly' vs what the information
>> really is.
>>
>>
>> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we
>>
>> get emails that paint a
>>
>> picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually are.
>>
>>
>> That is a misunderstanding of what is being said.  No one said
>> 'groupings don't matter'.  It's that groupings are not what is SET
>first
>> nor are the 'fixed'.  They come last and are laid over whatever other
>> decisions are made ahead of it.  The tail doesn't wag the dog...
>>
>> -Steve
>>
>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EDT, Bob K Mertz via FSPA
>> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think there is another huge problem being overlooked.... Well, the
>> creation of that problem is being overlooked. You're right that the
>> ladder doesn't gel well in the minds of many (myself often included)
>and
>> the one thing that seemingly is repeated over and over here is that
>> groups are never assigned until just before league starts......
>> ...... Except that we get an email that tells us what group we are in
>> next week as soon as the results are posted.
>>
>> I trust the ladder and I trust that the software is doing is thing so
>> why do the results emails we get try to paint a picture in the hopes
>of
>> explaining something that, apparently, doesn't at all seem to be the
>> case? Just don't tell us on advance what our groups are (or are
>supposed
>> to be) and tell us what groups we are in when we start league play
>and
>> this "false narrative" eventually disappears.
>>
>> TLDR: SLOs scream that the groupings don't matter but every week we
>get
>> emails that paint a picture of how "crucial" the groupings actually
>are.
>>
>>
>> On June 30, 2021 1:45:54 PM EDT, steve via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>wrote:
>>
>>
>> The difference with FSPA seems to be that you guys try to
>>
>> 'pre-make' your groups of 3,
>>
>> which obviously causes scrambling when people don't show
>>
>>
>> There are no 'pre-made' groups.  This is a common misunderstanding
>> about Groups in the FSPA design.  Groups are not pre-set before
>> league... a SLO could define groups at 5mins before league start if
>> they needed to.  What is 'fixed' in the FSPA system is the LADDER -
>> which is the stacking of players in order which serves as the
>> fundamental handicapping system in the FSPA match play system.  The
>> ladder starts with everyone's initial seeding, and is refined each
>> week by the movement defined by player performance against their
>> peers.  Group movement is the feedback loop that 'refines' the
>> ladder each week.  (Group Movement also gives people more variety in
>> competition you see.. but that's more a side-benefit)
>>
>> FSPA is a match play system.. so a fundamental concept in match play
>> is "Who do you play in your match"
>>
>> You could have
>> - random assignments
>> - groupings based on skill assessment/external rankings
>> - some non-random scheme designed to rotate or assign people by some
>> distribution (Example: Round robin)
>>
>> The first and third systems generally will mix up players of
>> different skill, and there are pros and cons to such models.  But
>> over the long haul, you can expect the better players to score
>> better at the expense of their under matched opponents.
>>
>> The second model tries to group similar skilled players together.
>> But is highly dependent on how you measure/assess/assign those skill
>> rankings.  This is difficult to do with new players, new locations,
>etc.
>>
>> Systems like Pinburgh were 'skill' based, but rather have you only
>> play against your peers, it used a converging model.  So #1 didn't
>> always play against #1, #2, #3, they played against other ranks
>> until ultimately converging there.  Like the FSPA model, their
>> 'ranking' was not fixed, but refined each round based on
>> performance.  (They used total points, FSPA instead uses group
>> promotion/demotion to refine your rank in the ladder).
>>
>> FSPA fundamentally is setup to allow players of different skill
>> levels to compete together.  This isn't just about breaking into
>> divisions.  It's the fundamental concept that we have inherent
>> handicapping built into the system by grouping similar skill levels
>> together.  This functions so it makes sense to compare the 12 points
>> I got in a week in group 1, to someone in group 4 who also got 12
>> points.  We both got 12 points...  are we equal players?  Probably
>> not, but our handicapped output is the same.. and you win/lose the
>> overall league based on your handicapped output - your match points.
>>
>> The premise of allowing players of different skill level to compete
>> and enjoy league is one of the core premises behind the FSPA rules
>> design.
>>
>> Everyone generally agrees getting creamed in a group is not fun long
>> term - thus there is extra attention to the idea of not placing
>> players where they would be setup for failure for no fault of their
>> own.  Additionally, on the competitive side, it creates significant
>> disparities when people are not aligned with their skill group,
>> while other players are.  (easier/harder to get points, etc)
>>
>> The point of all this is to try to explain why the Ladder is a
>> central pillar of the concept of how we pair players to play
>> together.  The more you move people around, the more you shake the
>> principal of how people are intended to be 'fairly' matched up which
>> is how we establish the equality of match points between different
>> groups.
>>
>> Match points are comparable across groups as the measure of success
>> because of handicapping.  Instead of adding/subtracting to scores as
>> a handicap, we use who you compete against as the handicapping in
>> the system.  The ladder is the construct to do this.
>>
>>
>> *So, TLDR - what the f are you talking about?*  It's important you
>> keep people playing against similar skill (within our ability) as a
>> fundamental construct of how the competitive and fun factors of our
>> scoring model operates.  Obviously you can start over with another
>> model entirely, and do away with the handicap FSPA is built on, but
>> understand it's not just a 'group change' but cuts much deeper when
>> you move people around the ladder or who they are grouped with.
>>
>> Skipping people not present when grouping is entirely feasible, the
>> messier part is how to systematically handle group movement after
>> the fact.  It would probably look a LOT more messy to players to
>> understand.  (only move winners and losers from their initial
>> position, not where they actually played, etc).
>>
>> But players don't generally understand ladder movement in the first
>> place... so...  :)
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021, 10:16:19 AM EDT, Elliott Keith via FSPA
>> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Even though I had to drop out of MOM's league this season due to
>> personal stuff, I felt the need to chime in with a 'simple' solution.
>>
>> Pretty much every other league I've played in besides FSPA had a
>> drop 2 format, with no headache. The difference with FSPA seems to
>> be that you guys try to 'pre-make' your groups of 3, which obviously
>> causes scrambling when people don't show. The 'drop 2' and 'pre-made
>> groups' just don't seem compatible to me. Most all other leagues
>> randomly dole out groups at the start of the night, and
>> Crabtowne's league had a 'division split' halfway through so you'd
>> play with people somewhat around your skill level.
>>
>> My solution idea is that instead of trying to 'pre-make' groups, why
>> not just keep track of ladder position? Like, after confirming who's
>> not there, the top three present are group 1, next three group 2,
>> etc. all the way down, with the last group being a 4 or 2 if
>> necessary. Keeps the similar skill level thing going, and seems
>> pretty easy to implement, since you guys keep track of that anyway.
>>
>> Just my two cents. Hope to be back in a league next season, and
>> happy 4th!
>>
>> -Elliott
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:57 AM Rob Wintler-Cox via FSPA
>> <fspa at fspazone.org <mailto:fspa at fspazone.org>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 9:38 AM Daniel Northover
>> <northovr at verizon.net <mailto:northovr at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Just ribbing you Rob your doing a awesome job
>>
>>
>> After last week my ribs are pretty sore. ;)
>> _______________________________________________
>> FSPA mailing list
>> FSPA at fspazone.org <mailto:FSPA at fspazone.org>
>> http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FSPA mailing list
>> FSPA at fspazone.org <mailto:FSPA at fspazone.org>
>> http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> FSPA mailing list
>> FSPA at fspazone.org <mailto:FSPA at fspazone.org>
>> http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FSPA mailing list
>> FSPA at fspazone.org
>> http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FSPA mailing list
>> FSPA at fspazone.org
>> http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FSPA mailing list
>> FSPA at fspazone.org
>> http://lists.fspazone.org/mailman/listinfo/fspa
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------- This
>email was processed through Xeams to filter junk messages. If you feel
>this message has been tagged incorrectly, you can change its category
>by clicking the link below. Click here to mark email as junk.
>-------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.fspazone.org/pipermail/fspa/attachments/20210701/edda7b05/attachment.htm>