[FSPA] Preplays are better

Tue Jun 29 22:51:11 EDT 2021

What I'm trying to highlight is people say they're comparing and
contrasting preplays vs. drop-2, but that isn't the problem they want to
solve.  No one likes playing in 2-player or 1-player groups, so solve that
problem instead.  Fix grouping so that doesn't happen.

And yeah, that might require an entirely new system.  But the feeling I get
is that this isn't about preplays or about being on the wrong end of 3-1
scoring, it's about having to play in undersized groups in the first
place.  This makes sense - league is as much a social adventure as a
pinball one, and we like to play with others.

        --- Dave

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 10:44 PM Bob K Mertz via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
wrote:

> So from my point of view (I'm fully understanding the POV you are coming
> from, however) it's effectively the same as the drop 2 rule except it's
> worse because we don't actually drop those two :)
>
> I really do get the sides of this argument and I hate the sandbagging and
> cheating possibilities that come with the territory of the preplay rules
> but, at the same time, were it not for that option I likely would have
> never joined FSPA in the first place and previously when I bowled I
> actually left a league for another because they didn't allow the "bowl out"
> option.
>
> People want different things out of league and there's nothing wrong with
> that but, at the same time, it comes down to what is the lesser of two
> evils. I'm not sure if my situation is the same as the majority or just a
> minority but I know I'm not alone. For me it's just hard to play my best
> and party dues and everything if I knew there always the possibility that I
> could get screwed out of my efforts by stuff that's beyond my control.....
> Anything that helps buffer that is a huge thing.
>
> One of the things that I always thought is that preplays should be played
> with someone else that is part of the league or, at the very least,
> supervised by someone. That would help alleviate some of the risk of
> cheating. No, it'll never be the same thing but I think there is a better
> balance between accommodating and free-for-all.
>
> On June 29, 2021 10:29:21 PM EDT, Dave Hubbard via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'd think they get the same zero points as if they just forfeited.  To be
>> clear, this idea doesn't include preplays either - live play only.  In the
>> system I'm imagining in my head, they just don't exist for that week and
>> their ladder position is adjusted to be whatever it ends up being (formula
>> TBD, but maybe off the top of my head, no-show = previous ladder position
>> minus 2 spots).
>>
>> In a system like that, you don't need to drop people from the league
>> after X weeks either.  If someone quits, they just drop to the bottom
>> collecting zeros and no one cares.  You can still do the drop-2 idea to
>> help smooth things for those that can't be there every week.
>>
>>        --- Dave
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 10:18 PM Bob K Mertz via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How does that affect the person that didn't make it to league that
>>> night? Do they just not get any points if everyone else is being paired up
>>> around them?
>>>
>>> On June 29, 2021 10:04:16 PM EDT, Dave Hubbard via FSPA <
>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Preplays might be better, but that's just choosing the best of two bad
>>>> options. No one likes playing against mystery scores where you have no idea
>>>> how the game was set up or whether they played by the rules (multiple extra
>>>> balls?) or whether it's just a made up score. And you're still playing by
>>>> yourself if everyone else in your group doesn't show up, so you haven't
>>>> solved that problem.
>>>>
>>>> The issue isn't preplays vs. drop-2, it's the fixed groups. If we had a
>>>> system where players checked in before league then we just peel them off in
>>>> groups of 3 or 4, the "number of people in the group" problem disappears.
>>>>
>>>> You'd need a different laddering system, but surely that's solveable.
>>>>
>>>> --- Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 9:52 PM Matt Wycoff via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It’s a trade off, you can force four player groups in the software but
>>>>> with “many” groups you can run into game backlogs especially with top heavy
>>>>> leagues like many of us have.  (Good players).
>>>>>
>>>>> To compensate for this, if there are enough location games you can
>>>>> have more 3 player groups but you do run the risk of a 1 person group from
>>>>> time to time.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Matt
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 9:48 PM Stephen Jonke via FSPA <
>>>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That’s how it should have been handled by the rules, but the question
>>>>>> is do 1 player groups happen more often with the drop 2 worst weeks rule?
>>>>>> Maybe. It will be interesting to see what happens in the last 2 weeks, and
>>>>>> especially last week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2021, 9:36 PM -0400, Matt Wycoff via FSPA <
>>>>>> fspa at fspazone.org>, wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you mean “reorganized” groups?  You can combine people into
>>>>>> groups for socially competitive purposes but the rules clearly state..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “ If only one player in a group is present and eligible to play (or
>>>>>> has preplay scores for) a game, that player earns a win by forfeit and
>>>>>> receives three (3) game points. That player still plays the game and his
>>>>>> score will be recorded for statistical purposes.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 9:28 PM Bob K Mertz via FSPA <
>>>>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that makes it tough for those of us that don't have set
>>>>>>> schedules at work and can potentially get stuck at any moment. In my case I
>>>>>>> always try my best to send a notice but it can be easy to get caught up
>>>>>>> trying to make it in time that you totally miss what time it actually is.
>>>>>>> Whether it actually *is* any better or not, I felt a lot less stressed
>>>>>>> knowing I had preplays on standby just in case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For various reasons I feel a lot better when there is a backup set
>>>>>>> of preplays that can be used in this situation. At the very least there
>>>>>>> needs to be clear expectations of what the limits are if we stick with the
>>>>>>> no prepay/drop two rule but for me personally the undated preplay system
>>>>>>> worked well and if we were taking a poll that would be my preference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On June 29, 2021 9:12:34 PM EDT, Deb Kapke via FSPA <
>>>>>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I feel like if we have a drop-2 rule then we also need a
>>>>>>>> let-a-league-officer-know-you-won’t-be-here rule.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It can be mission critical.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:58 PM, Kevin Stone via FSPA <
>>>>>>>> fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I thought dropping 2 scores would be better than preplays, but it
>>>>>>>> is absolutely not. We would have had two 1 actual player groups tonight in
>>>>>>>> first and last group,  but adjusted groups.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2 player groups SUCK.  You can crush a game and still get 1 point
>>>>>>>> for 2nd place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you can figure this shit out,  I'm impressed. Edan and I got it
>>>>>>>> re-organized but it was a pain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [image: Image]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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