[FSPA] READ ME! Preplays vs. Drop 2 Survey!

Sat Sep 4 04:29:06 EDT 2021

If your standard is set groups, then you bias players to expect set groups.
If the groups are based on who attends, the groups aren’t set and theres no
ripple effect or any disappointment. Play is still based on ladder position
and the integrity of *group* play is maintained, always.

The only weakness of what were calling regrouping is the burden on the SLO
to make the groups at league start, which also requires a strict check in
time.

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:49 PM steve via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:

> >I know it wasn't the perfect example and I love the ladder system. It
> keeps things balanced, but say what you may, we all have good nights and
> bad and the player who has been steady throughout the season shouldn't get
> bumped
> >because somebody had a hot night
>
> At least in the current model, you get 'bumped' because someone actually
> did good - the outcome is based on real performance.
>
> If that 'steady' aspect is important to you, regrouping is the worst
> outcome.  Regrouping on the fly due to absences has the consequence that
> one player's negative space has the potential to impact MULTIPLE groups.
> So now you have this ripple effect, impacting many players... based not on
> performance, but literally 'nothing'.
>
> People are bound to get pulled over the skill boundary and punished
> because some 3rd party wasn't there.  That's poster child for 'unintended
> consequences'.
>
> I've made a proposal for regrouping due to absences - but one of the key
> consequences of the move is people are artificially moved around... maybe
> even to their detriment.  Seems trivial until people start getting
> artificially high or low scores due to moving over a skill-gap boundary
> unnecessarily.
>
> No re-grouping is 'free' of impacts to other players .. which in itself is
> unfair.
>
> -Steve
>
> On Friday, September 3, 2021, 08:33:07 PM EDT, Jon Stephanou <
> stephanou81 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I know it wasn't the perfect example and I love the ladder system. It
> keeps things balanced, but say what you may, we all have good nights and
> bad and the player who has been steady throughout the season shouldn't get
> bumped because somebody had a hot night. I agree with Joe if we're going to
> keep drops we should regroup. I've played quite a few seasons and I've
> never seen so many one or two player groups like I did this season. It
> really can screw you when you're scoring a two-player game and you're
> fighting to get into the finals.
>
> I know we're trying to grow interest in the leagues and Pinball as a
> whole. I've played in Bowling & Dart Leagues and there's no mulligans. You
> paid money to play, it's only 10-weeks and I understand life happens but if
> you don't make it then you take the hit. Otherwise, if I'm cruising along
> through the season and I have a lead, it may be advantageous to skip a
> week. I could pit two others in my group against each other and possibly
> eliminate one and my zero gets forgotten.
>
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:13 PM steve via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>
> >I understand why FSPA uses groups, however I have played in leagues
> where the match ups were random. As in they were not set until everyone was
> there and we knew who was playing.
> >If making sure you keep the better players together for competition then
> keep groups but still make them random.
>
> Using random groups eliminates a key principle of the FSPA match play
> format - the ability for players of varying skill levels to compete with
> people of similar skill (comparatively).
>
> The reason you ARE NOT in a random group but a specific group of adjacent
> players is to allow players of different skill levels to compete and have
> their league points compared without extra modification.  Players are
> ranked based on their performance.  You play players adjacent you in this
> ranking.  The grouping is the handicapping in the system.  This way the
> points earned in Group 3 can be reasonably compared with the points earned
> in Group 1.  The players in Group 1 played what should be harder
> competition matching their better ability, why the player in the lower
> group earns points against a group of peers...
>
> Obviously this is idealized as player skill gradient is not perfect linear
> across a league - but the scheme works to function to allow people of
> different skill levels to play without fear of getting stomped the majority
> of the time by players that are radically better then themselves... or to
> prevent a top player from walking the whole season by cleaning up on far
> less experienced people.
>
> When you assemble groups by random - you effectively have one competition
> bracket - everyone is in the same pool.  And it becomes less and less a
> fair competition when skill levels vary greatly.
>
> Unless you divide people into different skill levels (Divisions) prior -
> random grouping will always be at odds with the fundamental concept of the
> handicapped scores.  And doing that basically breaks you into 2-5 different
> leagues per location.  Some may like that...   but then you take on the
> whole drama-ball on how you determine limits on divisions, worth, etc.
> Historically, the FSPA leagues have rewarded all divisions and encouraged
> equality even though the skill varies.
>
> (See the openness to how league prizes were picked, etc).   That said, at
> Ocelot we didn't do 'equal' prize pools, but a 40/30/30 split.
>
> -Steve
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021, 05:47:36 PM EDT, frederick butts via FSPA
> <fspa at fspazone.org> wrote:
>
>
> I understand why FSPA uses groups, however I have played in leagues where
> the match ups were random. As in they were not set until everyone was there
> and we knew who was playing.
>
> If making sure you keep the better players together for competition then
> keep groups but still make them random.
>
> Another aspect we used was the lowest ranked person was first on the list
> and picked the game they wanted to play. Then number two… etc… if it was
> only a three person group then the person with the lowest point total
> through 3 games would pick the fourth. The player order went from 1-4 from
> the pervious game. I played in quite a few 1 player groups because the
> other two or three were not there and it was preplays.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 1, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Matt Wycoff via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
> wrote:
>
> 
> For ocelot, we will plan to continue the Drop-2 format, without
> regrouping.  We will work to make the tiebreakers and forfeits more clear,
> if rule changes are necessary (which I doubt) we will announce those to
> players at the league location and on the FSPA Web site.  If you are
> planning on playing Ocelot this season (Sept 15th) and have questions or
> concerns, please contact me directly.
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 1:50 PM Deb Kapke via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
> wrote:
>
> Last season was summer.
> Summer traditionally has more no-shows if I’m not mistaken.
>
> Plus Covid.
>
> And crazy rainstorms.
>
> So I’m not sure this one small summer of leagues with a new rule provides
> data usable to assess attendance resulting from D2.
>
> (And I like D2 for locations with many machines, particularly if those
> locations have shorter hours.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 1, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Stephen Jonke via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>
> wrote:
>
> 
> I’d be curious to know what long term affect drop 2 has on attendance. I’d
> guess it would be worse, but we’d have to see how it plays out long term.
> Last season were there more no-shows than usual?
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2021, 12:25 PM -0400, Gregg Giblin via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org>,
> wrote:
>
> Adding my thoughts, having to pre-play 2 sets at a large location (MOM’S)
> is horrible.
>
> Gregg
>
> On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Edward Most via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org
> <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>> wrote:
>
> Just my two cents here, Having played 2 FSPA leagues last season and many
> many more prior I have to say that the last season was by far the worst.
> This has no reflection on the folks that managed the leagues, in fact quite
> the opposite. Kevin Rich Edan and  Matty Y worked their butts off. One
> player games are bad. It goes against the spirit of playing and competing
> with friends. If I wanted to play pinball by myself I could do that home.
> Much luv to the pinball Tribe.Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----From: Stephanie Traub via FSPA <
> fspa at fspazone.org <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>>To: FSPA main
> discussion list <fspa at fspazone.org <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>>Cc:
> Stephanie Traub <stephsharer at gmail.com
> <https://mailto:stephsharer@gmail.com>>Sent: Wed, Sep 1, 2021 9:39 amSubject:
> Re: [FSPA] READ ME! Preplays vs. Drop 2 Survey!
> Hey all, going to close the survey now as we have more results than Survey
> Monkey will let us view for free  .... heh.  Thank you for all your
> responses!  We will analyze the results and get back to everyone.
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 12:16 AM Wei-Hwa Huang via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org
> <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>> wrote:
>
> Maybe people like playing against people in one-player groups.
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 7:15 PM Austin Mackert via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org
> <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>> wrote:
>
> The survey says, people like playing in one-player groups, apparently.
> Weird.
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 9:30 PM Edward Most via FSPA <fspa at fspazone.org
> <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>> wrote:
>
> and the survey says???
>
>
> -----Original Message-----From: Daniel Reynolds via FSPA <
> fspa at fspazone.org <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>>To: FSPA main
> discussion list <fspa at fspazone.org <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>>CC:
> Daniel Reynolds <daniel.j.reynolds at gmail.com
> <https://mailto:daniel.j.reynolds@gmail.com>>Sent: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:06Subject:
> Re: [FSPA] READ ME! Preplays vs. Drop 2 Survey!
> regardless of the results, i appreciate FSPA management reaching out for
> general opinions.  thanks for all you folks do.
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 11:20 AM Stephanie Traub via FSPA <
> fspa at fspazone.org <https://mailto:fspa@fspazone.org>> wrote:
>
> SURVEY! SURVEY! SURVEY!
> At the request of FSPA Exec, please find a link below to take a survey
> regarding your feelings about drop two vs. preplays.  Please take it only
> if you played in this past season and thus were exposed to this new system.
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/G5KBHK5
> I will close the survey at COB FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 3. So don't delay!
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/G5KBHK5
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/G5KBHK5
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/G5KBHK5
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/G5KBHK5
> Thanks!Stephanie
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>
> --Wei-Hwa Huang, onigame at gmail.com <https://mailto:onigame@gmail.com>
> -----------------------------------------------------------"Where are all
> the time travellers?" -- generalizing the Fermi Paradox to four dimensions
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> --
> Thanks,
> Jon
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